Stigma. It can be the difference between getting well and avoiding the help you need, especially when we’re talking about mental health.
Stigma. It can be the difference between getting well and avoiding the help you need, especially when we’re talking about mental health. Even though the awareness of mental health needs are increasingly common, we still see people delay seeking treatment due to stigma: feelings of shame and disgrace that lead to concerns about being treated differently. In this episode, our LISTEN WELL host Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan is tackling stigma with renowned psychiatrist and president of the WPA, Dr. Afzal Javed, and Ms. Anita Abu Bakar, president of MIASA – the Mental Illness Awareness and Support Association in Malaysia.
Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes and is not intended to replace discussions with your healthcare provider. All decisions regarding your care must be made with a healthcare professional, considering the unique characteristics of your personal situation. The opinions expressed are the opinions of the individuals recorded and not the opinions of Viatris. Individuals featured in this podcast may have participated in the past as or may be current members of an advisory group for Viatris.
Dr. Mo:
Welcome back to Listen Well. Did you know that globally, one in every three individuals suffers from a mental illness over the course of their life? Even though we know mental health issues are common, often we see people avoid or delay seeking treatment due to stigma. Feelings of shame and disgrace that lead to concerns about being treated differently, fear of losing their jobs, and worry about facing prejudice and discrimination. On this episode, we're tackling stigma with renowned psychiatrist, and current president of the World Psychiatric Associate, Dr. Afzal Javed, and Ms. Anita Abu Bakar, president of MIASA, the Mental Illness Awareness and Support Association in Malaysia.
Dr. Mo:
We'll explore misconceptions about mental health, how stigma may be seen in different countries and cultures, the challenges stigma has posed to all of us, and especially to healthcare professionals during the COVID-19 pandemic. We'll also discuss how to best support yourself or your loved ones, to get the right help.
Dr. Mo:
Together, we can reduce stigma, and it starts with awareness. So stay with us for a truly enlightening episode. It's time to Listen Well.
Dr. Javed:
My name is Afzal Javed. I'm a consultant psychiatrist and associated with the University of Birmingham and University of Warwick in UK. And also, attached with the Pakistan Psychiatric Research Center, Fountain House in Lahore.
Dr. Mo :
Fantastic. And you do some great work, uh, in, international organizations with psychiatry.
Dr. Javed:
Yeah. I'm currently, president of World Psychiatric Association. That is the international representative association of psychiatrists, uh, having 145 member societies in 120 countries. And representing plus 250,000 psychiatrists, globally.
Dr. Mo:
Dr. Afzal Javed. Let's start with a very basic key question for this episode. How would you define and describe stigma?
Dr. Javed:
Well, Dr. Mo, this is really an interesting question to start with because people use the term stigma to mean different things.
Dr. Mo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Javed:
If you ask people, they may be talking about prejudice. They may be talking about discrimination. They may be talking about social isolation.
Dr. Mo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Javed:
They may be talking about marginalization. So it really, means different things to different people but the main features are the component of this particular term is, that people who are mentally ill, they suffer stigma because they are marginalized.
Dr. Mo:
Hmm.
Dr. Javed:
They do not get the attention and support, what they need to do. And more importantly, there is issues with the attitude and the behavior of the society towards that.
Dr. Mo:
So it's multi, uh, multiple components of stigma, at different levels.
Dr. Javed:
Of course, there are, uh, different, uh, components and, uh, there are differences in different cultures.
Dr. Mo:
you've written widely about stigma. Uh, for example, one of your most recent publications which I had the pleasure of reading, uh, was called, Reducing the Stigma of Mental Health Disorders with a Focus on Low- and Middle-Income Countries. So can you tell us a bit about this publication and about why, the focus was on low and middle income countries?
Dr. Javed:
Well, if you look at globally, uh, we see that around 70% to 80% of population live in low- and middle-income countries.
Dr. Mo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Javed:
And when it comes to health and social sectors, unfortunately, they do not enjoy a lot what the developed countries or the upper developed countries are enjoying. So when it comes to mental health in particular, number one, mental health is not given a priority within the health and social sectors. There are issues with the capacity building.
Dr. Mo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Javed:
I mean, just to give you an example, there are so many countries in the world, where there is only one psychiatrist available for more than one million population.
Dr. Mo:
Wow.
Dr. Javed:
And then, the other issue is that, uh, there is a consensus now, that mental health problems constitute around 25% to 30% of population disability or burden.
Dr. Mo:
Hmm.
Dr. Javed:
And when it comes to the low- and middle-income countries, unfortunately, the impact becomes even much more. So that was the background that, uh, being the president of World Psychiatric Association, my main emphasis was to explore that how this particular term, stigma or the concept of stigma is affecting the care, as well as the delivery of mental health services in low- and middle-income countries.
Dr. Javed:
And this information was about not only knowledge in those countries but also, about the attitude.
Dr. Mo:
Hmm.
Dr. Javed:
So knowledge and attitude was actually leading to a number of issues which were, at the end, affecting not only the person with mental health problems but also, their family, their caregivers, as well as the society members who are living around him. And then, we also found another interesting aspect.
Dr. Mo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Javed:
That the healthcare professional do have a stigma about mental illnesses.
Dr. Mo:
Within the healthcare community.
Dr. Javed:
Yeah. This was very interesting that, uh, whereas, the mentally ill were suffering problems not only from their caregivers, family or society, they were also, finding a number of barriers when it comes to the recognition and awareness by the healthcare professionals.
Dr. Mo:
So when we talk about this burden of stigma in low- and middle-income countries, it sounds like, what you're saying is, it's not just social, economic status, that there's other factors in these countries that leads to a higher burden of stigma.
Dr. Javed:
Well, of course. I mean, these are a number of reasons which one can speculate, that why stigma or stigma related concepts are more prevalent in those countries.
Dr. Mo:
Hmm.
Dr. Javed:
But before I talk about that, if you just look at that what happens when there is a stigma, this leads to the difficulties in perceiving the health needs of the mentally ill. This leads to delayed help seeking.
Dr. Mo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Javed:
Reduced access to services and even, if they get services, there is a suboptimal treatment. And all these things lead to poor outcome and increased risk of reduced quality of life and their human rights.
Dr. Javed:
I always give one example, that whenever you talk about mental health, people always think about a mental illness.
Dr. Mo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Javed:
Whereas, there is a mental well-being.
Dr. Mo:
Right.
Dr. Javed:
There is a mental positive health.
Dr. Mo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Javed:
So this perception of mental health is one of the major factors that lead to these difficulties. And then, following that, poor allocation of budgets, less exposure of healthcare professionals about mental health issues, difficulties in finding places where people can get culturally appropriate treatment. Because mental health is mainly influenced by a number of cultural factors.
Narration (Dr. Mo):
Dr. Javed is making a really interesting point here about how we tend to think about mental health. With mental health, we often default to thinking about issues or illness. But mental well-being is an equal part of the mental health equation, and should be included more in the conversation.
Dr. Mo:
Now, your answer touched on a number of topics that I want to follow up on. But key among them, you mentioned human rights. Is there are a link, between stigma, which by nature seems to marginalize people and prejudice, discrimination? What have you experienced or researched on this.
Dr. Javed:
If you look at the current thinking, especially going for this, the United Nations, convention on patients with disabilities. Mental health problems or mental illnesses are considered as disabilities.
Dr. Mo :
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Javed:
Disabilities in general are where the human rights are not practiced. Or, if practiced, not to the extent that many times it is exploited.
Dr. Mo:
Hmm.
Dr. Javed:
So, looking from that perspective, the quality of care, the quality of service and the quality of handling of these patients. Everything actually leads to the poor health standards, as well as the myriads related to the human rights.
Dr. Mo:
Okay. You also mentioned sub-stigma. What does that mean and how does that differ across cultures or religions?
Dr. Javed:
Well, the stigma you should really conceptualize from a negative societal discourse to people with mental illness.
Dr. Mo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Dr. Javed:
So, when you are worried, that if you speak to a doctor, to a healthcare professional, to a friend or a family member that, "Look, I'm suffering from mental illness." There is always a fear that the person will immediately be rejected.
Dr. Mo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Javed:
And this really leads to hiding up and delaying the help-seeking in many people who suffer from mental health problems.
Dr. Mo:
Right.
Dr. Javed:
Let's just take an example. There is an illness. What we call obsessive compulsive disorder.
Narration:
And allow me just to quickly define obsessive compulsive disorder, or OCD, as a condition in which people have recurring, unwanted thoughts, ideas or sensations that make them feel driven to do something repetitively, which can significantly interfere with daily activities and social interactions.
Dr. Javed:
Now we have got evidence that it takes almost, almost eight to ten years for many patients coming to the attention of the healthcare professionals.
Dr. Mo :
Eight to ten years before they seek care?
Dr. Javed:
They are fearful. They are scared because when they will talk about their problems, people will simply say, "Oh, forget it. This is in your mind."
Dr. Mo:
Mmm
Dr. Javed:
Or are you, are you, are you crazy that you are thinking about this?
Dr. Javed:
Another cultural aspect that we have found, especially in many low-income countries with somatization or presentation with physical health problem is more prevalent even to explain the underlying psychological problems, anxiety or depression.
(Audio interjection)
Narration (Dr. Mo):
Hold on, jargon alert. Somatization is the expression of psychological or emotional issues as physical symptoms without a medical basis. Like stress leading to back pain or fatigue.
Dr. Javed:
Just imagine that a man who suffers from depression. If he says to his family, "Look, I'm feeling depressed." What will be their response as compared to if he says, "Look, I'm having pain in my chest."
Dr. Mo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Very different.
Dr. Javed:
Immediately the scenario changes.
Dr. Mo:
Yes.
Dr. Javed:
There are a number of socio-cultural aspects that actually hinder this process.
Dr. Mo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So, healthcare providers, it seems, should be on the front line of battling stigma. What you mentioned earlier, it takes seven to eight years for someone with OCD, with obsessive compulsive to even present to care.
Dr. Mo:
Have you seen, or have you found in research, that healthcare providers could be accidentally increasing or perpetuating stigma?
Dr. Javed:
Well, of course. When you are not acknowledging. When you are not listening to the patient. Or when you are just dismissing what the patient is saying, that will directly or indirectly lead to increase not only the stigma, but also the marginalization.
Dr. Mo:
Hmm.
Dr. Javed:
If a patient talks to the primary care physician about the mental health problem, he or she will most of the time say, "Oh, no no no. This is mental health problem. Go and talk to the mental health people."
Dr. Mo:
Right.
Dr. Javed:
So, this is, this is very important that, number one, we do not acknowledge. Number two, we do not encourage our patients to talk about their mental health. And number three, we do not give them reassurance that mental health is equally important as physical health. As we know that, no health without mental health.
Dr. Mo:
Yeah. Well, being in the World Psychiatric Association, you have a unique global view on what's been going on and of course, the last two years, the COVID-19 pandemic has touched every part of our lives. Has this pandemic also caused new challenges related to stigma?
Dr. Javed:
Well, I would, I would like to answer this questions in a different way.
Dr. Mo:
Hmm.
Dr. Javed:
COVID has created a triple challenge for mental health. Number one, there is a general increase of anxiety, fear, depression, social isolation and trauma-like symptoms amongst the general population.
Dr. Mo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Dr. Javed:
The second challenge is that there has been an increase in the mental health problems of those patients who were already suffering from mental illnesses.
Dr. Javed :
The third challenge, which is even more complex, that while during the COVID, everyone was talking about shelter. About physical well-being. About physical health. People simply forgot the mental health. In many countries people with mental illnesses were not receiving the treatment. They were not able to see the mental health professionals.The end result was that mental health problems increased. And then, with reference to the stigma, if you combine the fear of COVID and combine the aspects of mental health, this really becomes double stigma.
Dr. Mo:
So, what do you think the solution to that is? In the post-COVID world, so many things are changing. Do we need to be talking openly about stigma? Are there other things that we could be doing as a society to decrease stigma or, end it, hopefully once and for all?
Dr. Javed:
So, I think, one aspect is that we should actually try to encourage social inclusion but with clear, assertive restrictions or limitations. Number one and number two. We should try to encourage people to speak about their fears. To speak about their worries about COVID. It could not be 100% physical. There are so many issues related to mental health and there has been a number of studies that is coming up that children and young adolescents are actually facing a number of issues through these COVID restrictions.
Dr. Mo:
Hmm.
Dr. Javed:
They are having less social interaction, not going to schools. Just looking to their computers. Spending more time online. And that personal social interaction is almost, almost gone.
Dr. Mo:
It has such a huge impact on young people and I wonder what's going to be the impact down the road, many years from now.
Dr. Mo:
You touched on loneliness and it's been said that, we're going through a loneliness epidemic as well and I, or pandemic, and I really hope to talk about that in future episodes.
Dr. Mo:
if you can leave our listeners with some final messages. Some final thoughts about stigma. Some takeaways.
Dr. Javed:
Thank you Dr. Mo, I think the most important take home message is, that stigma is prevalent, and affects people with mental health, mental health problems in a different way. And this difference depends on patients’ culture, education, religion and geographical location.
Dr. Javed:
And more importantly, stigma can be managed if we have got reasonable exposure about knowledge and attitude to the healthcare professionals, and also to encourage society for social inclusion of mentally ill.
Dr. Mo:
It's a pleasure to have Ms. Anita Abu Bakar also, on the program.
Dr. Mo :
Anita, can you tell us about yourself and the work you do?
Anita Abu Bakar:
Sure. I'm the president and founder of MIASA, the Mental Illness Awareness and Support Association. We are a mental health advocacy and peer support group, based in, one of the main, um, cities in Malaysia. Um, we, so what MIASA does is the majority of us are people with lived experience. Um, and the balance are, people of, various backgrounds, very much, passionate for the cause of mental health, advocating it. What we do is create awareness on the importance of mental health.
Dr. Mo:
Anita, if I can start with a key questions for you, what drew you to working in the field of mental health in the first place?
Anita Abu Bakar:
To be honest, Dr. Mo, I, I really didn't know that I, that I was coming into the field of mental health. It wasn't that obvious, you know. I had, you know, I was struggling with my condition. I was going through my, uh, journey to recovery and I had an idea, on how to go through the recovery process. I mean, through my own experience, it might work for other people and I wanted to share that across. So that was how I came into this space.
Anita Abu Bakar :
Certainly, I, I didn't know what I was getting myself into in the beginning. I don't mean it in a bad way because, uh, it's a whole different world all together. the challenges are insurmountable and sometimes unimaginable too. I think we know this when we talk about stigma, it leads to discrimination, there's isolation exclusion, there's many layers when it, when you talk about stigma in the whole mental health space for, um, mental health peers or people with psychosocial disability.
Anita Abu Bakar:
When I was diagnosed eight years ago,
Anita Abu Bakar:
Initially, what I hoped was, um, people that were struggling, uh, were able to come to MIASA. They, you know, felt empowered in their recovery. They felt that they could feel a sense of hope, a way out because that's usually how we feel in the beginning, when we, you know, are afflicted with the condition, right? With the mental illness or with the mental health disorder, you don't see a way out, you feel trapped, you feel hopeless in your recovery. Um, you feel that your condition is unique especially when you lack the knowledge or you don't know of anyone else who has the condition. And so you feel very, um, alone, you know, you, you hope for a way out but you don't see it.
Anita Abu Bakar:
So that was my intention when I first came, uh, into the mental health space. And then, as I went along and I understood it and then, I understood the gaps and now, what we're trying to do very much is filling up the gaps, uh, continuing to fight stigma and discrimination.
Dr. Mo:
Yeah. Uh, when, when you first started talking about mental illness-
Dr. Mo :
... was it hard, were there challenges? Can you tell us about some of the things you faced?
Anita Abu Bakar:
Oh, yeah. It was, it was extremely challenging, um, because there was a lot of resistance in the beginning. So, um, you know we’re not, being peers, being a person with, with a condition, with a disorder, when there's stigma then there's a lot of, um, negative perception or negative connotations, right, when you talk about mental health disorder. So you're not seen as equal.
Anita Abu Bakar:
So that was very challenging in the beginning. And, uh, what people don't realize is for you to disclose that you have a mental health condition takes a lot of courage.
Anita Abu Bakar:
You know, being vulnerable takes a lot of courage. What more, disclosing that you have a mental health disorder which is one of the most highly stigmatized mental, um, you know, health conditions ever-
Anita Abu Bakar:
... uh, in human history. So, it wasn't easy at all. But after a lot of practice and, you know, I'm an e- extrovert and then-
Anita Abu Bakar:
... when I started building the team and today, we have, you know, 1000 plus volunteers in MIASA and we've got, you know, three, 4000 people with us. So when, when you're, you know, when there's a lot of us, um, it makes you stronger in that sense and you feel more empowered, you find hope. There's strength in, you know, the camaraderie, you know, being together. So that really helps. But yeah, it was very difficult in the beginning, to be honest
Dr. Mo:
your organization MIASA, uh, can you tell us, uh, about it. What does MIASA stand for? What type of work, uh, are you doing?
Anita Abu Bakar:
Right. Um, MIASA is a mental health advocacy and peer support group. Um, so, uh, we're actually the first one in Malaysia although, I didn't know that when I first started, uh-
Anita Abu Bakar:
... when I gave birth to it, in that sense. So what we do as much as possible is, um, obviously one, we provide awareness as much as possible. And I think one of the silver linings, um, you know, when this pandemic it happened, was now, we're able to reach more people, right?
Anita Abu Bakar:
Because one, we're able to normalize this discussion so we're able to take away the shame, uh, from it, you know, the fear from it. A lot of people, uh, are more encouraged, to, um, seek further help, um, and we're able to use technology. So via social media, be it Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, YouTube, our website-
Anita Abu Bakar:
We're able to reach more people. So that's a really good thing. So we're able to do that a lot, now, instead of doing physical sessions like, what we used to do. We have migrated all our services optimal, virtually.
Dr. Mo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Anita Abu Bakar:
Everything you can think of, in MIASA, we provide non-medical alternatives as much as possible, because we focus on the whole life approach, right? We, although, we do provide mental health assessment. We do, you know, therapeutic assessment. We've got therapy, we have counseling as well, just so that we have the whole solution. But as much as possible, we focus on peer support, family support, art therapy, expressive dance therapy, um, supported employment, we encourage people to come and volunteer. So contact based education is one of the big things that we do, as well.
Anita Abu Bakar:
Because stigma is so widespread. So we encourage people to volunteer as much as possible, so that we're able to reduce stigma as a whole. We very much champion the recovery model and also, human rights based approach. So that's, uh, a lot of the things that we talk about.
Dr. Mo:
is that part of what MIASA does, kind of, guide an individual who's-
Dr. Mo:
... new to this world and, and feeling lost and alone?
Anita Abu Bakar:
Yes, yeah. That's what we do. We try to navigate it for them. You know, guide and help and assist and we, because see, it's different for us, Dr. Mo. Because when you're a peer group, there's no judgment, you know. A person comes in, they don't go home empty-handed.
Anita Abu Bakar:
They come in, it's a safe space. You know, they get to speak to us. You know, a lot, a lot of times people ask us all the time, um, you know, is it difficult to get someone to, you know, um, talk about their issues? It isn't for us because when they come in, they know that there's no judgment. In contrary, there's a lot of empathy and compassion and kindness and they, and we can relate, they can relate to us. We understand what they're going through. So there's a lot of understanding, and what we do is we discuss. We discuss on the options on, you know, the different alternatives, you know, 'cause at any point in time, it must be an informed decision. It must be informed consent.
Anita Abu Bakar:
So we help to support the decision that is made, by the peers that come in to seek for help and support, definitely.
Dr. Mo:
So Anita, I think you're uniquely positioned because you've suffered yourself, you've, uh, spoken out. You've, um, worked in advocacy and leadership in this space. So I'm really interested on your take on what are the commonest misconceptions or myths that you've seen about mental health, whether in your community or worldwide?
Anita Abu Bakar:
Okay. Um, I think the, the most obvious one is, a person with a mental health condition can't recover.
Anita Abu Bakar:
Um, I think that this is the biggest misconception ever, that, that people talk about a lot. Not just the, the public, Dr. Mo, even amongst mental health professionals themselves.
Anita Abu Bakar:
And of course, what is being portrayed by the media, I think, is a huge contributing factor because if you look at movies, films, dramas, music videos, songs, uh, we're looking at inaccurate portrayals of people with mental health disorders.
Anita Abu Bakar:
We're looking at, um, reporting of, you know, for example, in the news of the people that have mental health conditions, usually ends with a tragedy. Uh, then there's...
Dr. Mo:
Yeah, or violence.
Anita Abu Bakar:
Yeah, or violence. So people, that the other misconception would be a person with a mental health condition is violent.
Dr. Mo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Anita Abu Bakar:
They're dangerous, right? They're crazy, mad, et cetera. Although we've moved, I think, we've progressed much right now, uh, in Malaysia, as well, due to the whole pandemic.
Dr. Mo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Anita Abu Bakar:
Because even the normal people now, um, are struggling, right?
Dr. Mo:
Right.
Anita Abu Bakar:
So they get a glimpse of what are mental health challenges. Uh, but I think, those are the two greatest, um, misconceptions that I've seen, uh, til today. And I think it's, it's so unfortunate because if you look at the recovery model, uh, I mean, the first thing, you know, it says, you know, anyone that has a mental health condition can recover. You know, despite how chronic or how severe it might be.
Anita Abu Bakar:
But the, the only problem and issue here, is because we wait till the very end and then, we seek help, either because we lack the knowledge or the people around us, be, be it family or friends, you know, don't, don't help and assist or they become dismissive, you know. And then, we don't, we don't get the help that we need.
Anita Abu Bakar:
So I think it's so important for people to really, seek knowledge on mental health, understand early warning signs so that we can help and provide the intervention early before it becomes, chronic, right, or severe. And people battle, you know, suicidal thoughts, intense, uh, suicidal ideation, contemplate suicide, et cetera, when everything is preventable and you can actually recover from it. I mean, your prognosis will be better if you get the help earlier. Um, so I think knowledge is transformative and this is what needs to happen.
Dr. Mo:
Absolutely, knowledge, education.
Dr. Mo:
You mentioned two,positive silver, silver linings to the pandemic. One, was that, people who never suffered mental illness before, suffered loneliness or isolation and, and could maybe, have more empathy.
Dr. Mo:
And the second was that your services, uh, expanded digitally and you reached even more people.
Dr. Mo:
Uh, could, could you tell us, uh, about some of these resources and where the audience can look for them?
Anita Abu Bakar:
so when the pandemic first started, we weren't allowed to operate 'cause we weren't considered, you know, part of essential services, right?
Anita Abu Bakar:
we do spiritual therapy, peer supports, um, circle time, everything was done, online. And then, we realized that, you know, we, we are able to reach more people because every program that we do, we can hit, you know, 50,000, 100,000.
Anita Abu Bakar :
So telehealth has helped so much. So we have, we're now, able to break that barrier to access as well, because now, even the people in the rural areas are able to access these services. And one of the things that we've done, um, Dr. Mo and everyone, in breaking that barrier as well for, um, you know, the people in the rural areas or the homeless is, we are currently providing all our services, the essential services, at no cost.
Dr. Mo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Anita Abu Bakar:
So what we've done is, you know, the rich pays, um, you know, the middle income earners pays, but those that are not able to pay, then we provide it for free.
Dr. Mo:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Anita Abu Bakar:
Um, so that way more people are able to access the help. So this is, it's, it's been fantastic and I can share with you really quickly last year, uh, from August, until August 2nd this year, um, about 100,000 people reached out, um, to MIASA
Dr. Mo:
That's amazing.
Anita Abu Bakar:
... asking for help and that's a huge number for our population-
Dr. Mo:
Yeah.
Anita Abu Bakar:
And uh, it's all you know, uh, thanks to COVID, I guess, um-
Dr. Mo:
(laughs).
Anita Abu Bakar:
... but it had to happen this way, for the whole conversation to come, come, come out I guess, yep.
Dr. Mo:
So, so let me end with, if someone listening wants to look up the services you provide-
Dr. Mo:
Maybe they want to emulate, or um-
Dr. Mo:
... do something similar in their country. Where would they go looking-
Dr. Mo:
... for these resources?
Anita Abu Bakar:
... they can, they can go to a website. So we're all over social media as well, so you can just go to miasa.malaysia, M-I-A-S-A.malaysia, or our website which is miasa.org.my. Uh, and all the information is there. Um, so yeah.
Dr. Mo:
Right.
Anita Abu Bakar:
So feel free to reach out.
Dr. Mo:
So Anita, could you leave our audience with some key take home messages, maybe things they could apply or think about moving forward?
Anita Abu Bakar:
so I would like to end it with, a couple of things, uh, Dr. Mo. First and foremost, for everyone that's struggling out there, please know that you're not alone. Please reach out, there are people and places that can help. And if you're ready, please do share your story across, because I always say this. You know, we don't know whose story will provide that key to unlock a person's struggle. So it may, help save a life, really. Trust yourself in the process, and for those of you that are, caring for a person that is going through a mental health, disorder, please seek knowledge.
Anita Abu Bakar:
Don't be quick to judge, have empathy, and uh, compassion. Uh, this is very important. Your role is huge. Um, you know, for me, I can tell you that um, without my caregivers, which was my husband, my mom and my kids, um, I wouldn't be here today speaking to all of you. Because when you're in that space, um, you know, it's very difficult to see a way out, and so you need someone to help you go through it. So I wanted to leave you with is, there is always hope. Thank you
Dr. Mo:
We hope this conversation has shed some light on what stigma means for those experiencing mental health challenges. Hopefully, it has empowered you to play an active role to help overcome stigma, either for yourself, for a loved one, or even more broadly in society.
Dr. Mo:
No matter who you are, where you live, or where you come from, you are not alone. There are programs and organizations that can help you. Talking to your doctor, your family or your friends should be an act that helps to make you feel stronger.
Dr. Mo:
In the post COVID-19 era, after we've all experienced extra strain on our mental health, it's even more important to check in with yourself, and the people around you and ask, are you okay? No matter the issue, it's ultimately up to you to be your own best health advocate. And remember, when in doubt, reach out. I'd like to give a huge thanks to Dr. Afzal Javed, and Anita Abu Bakar for their fantastic insights, and expertise on this topic. I'm Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan, thanks for listening. And we hope you'll tune in again next time.
If you're looking for more information or resources about the topics covered in this or other episodes, you can visit www.listenwellpodcast.com. I’m Dr. Mo Alsuwaidan. Thanks for listening.
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